Crito Discussion

Discussion

In the Apology and the Crito, is Socrates saying one should 
always obey the state no matter what? What argument is he making in the Crito by having the law speak rather than saying those words himself?  How does what the law says connect with with what Socrates says about obedience to the state and conscience in the Apology? How does it connect with his own life and actions?  When should one obey the state?  How would Henry David Thoreau, who refused to pay his taxes because they would be used in part to support slavery and who briefly went to jail for his choice, answer Socrates? Would he urge Socrates to escape or to stay in jail?  Do you agree with either or both of these thinkers on when a person should obey the state? Why or why not? Illustrate your answer with arguments from 
the Apology, the Crito, and Civil Disobedience. Post your answer in the Obey the State discussion folder.

This link is also to use for this assignment

https://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper2/thoreau/civil.html

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Circle what you believe is the correct answer to the questions below and offer evidence supporting your view.

1. T F Seeking wealth and physical comfort will corrupt the spirit.

Answer: False.

Evidence: Seeking wealth and physical comfort does not necessarily corrupt the spirit. In fact, some people have used wealth and comfort to improve their spiritual lives, by using their resources to help others or to further their own spiritual growth. For example, some people use their wealth to travel and explore different spiritual paths, while others use their physical comfort to meditate and practice mindfulness.

2. TF Wisdom is knowing that you know nothing.

Answer: True.

Evidence: True. This is a quote attributed to Socrates himself, and it is a central philosophy of his teachings. Socrates believed that we cannot truly learn anything until we recognize that we do not know anything. This is why he often asked questions of those he was teaching and questioned even his own beliefs. He wanted those he interacted with to question the status quo and come to their own conclusions, rather than just accept the opinions of others.

3. T F Socrates makes the weaker argument defeat the stronger.

Answer: True.

Evidence: Socrates believed that a weaker argument can defeat a stronger one if it is used correctly. He argued that a weaker argument can point out the flaws in a stronger argument, and use those flaws to its own advantage. This idea is seen in the Socratic Method, where Socrates would ask questions and use logic to break down the arguments of his opponents. By doing so, he would often be able to prove that their argument was flawed, even if it was stronger than his.

APOLOGY PAGE 33

1. According to Socrates, the difference between him and his accusers is the difference between him and his accusers is that he speaks the truth while they spread falsehoods.

2. The hardest group of accusers to refute is the group of accusers who have been repeating false stories about Socrates since the Athenians were children because they have been hearing these stories for so long that they have become embedded in the minds of the people. As a result, it is much harder to convince them of the truth than it is to convince those who have only recently heard the false stories.

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The main points Socrates has made thus far are:

· His accusers have spoken very little truth.

· He has been accused for many years, but the slanderers have remained unnamed.

· He is innocent of the charges of being an evil-doer and teaching others to make the weaker argument defeat the stronger.

· He does not pretend to know anything about matters of the air, despite what Aristophanes said.

· He does not take money for teaching, but respects those who do.

· He has heard of a philosopher living in Athens who charges fees.

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Even the Parian is a poet and specialist in rhetoric whose fee is about $1000

Socrates’ ironic point about Evenus is that, although he charges a high fee for his expertise, he is still more modest than Socrates would have been if he had the same level of knowledge.

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Socrates’ plan is to find someone wiser than himself in order to refute the Oracle of Delphi because the Oracle had declared that Socrates was the wisest of all men. Socrates did not believe this to be true, so he set out to prove the Oracle wrong by finding someone who was wiser than him. He visited many people of different stations in life, from politicians to poets to artisans, but found that in most cases, he was the wiser of the two. This proved to Socrates that the Oracle was right, and he accepted the Oracle’s verdict.

The ironies of Socrates’ search are:

1. He finds that the people who were thought to be wise were actually foolish and some of the people who were thought to be foolish were actually wiser.

2. He finds that the poets do not understand the meaning of their own poetry and that the politicians do not understand their own political wisdom.

3. He finds that the artisans know more than he does, even though he believed himself to be superior.

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1. The major groups Socrates visited were: poets, politicians, and artisans.

2. The important points established by this story are: that Socrates was aware of his own ignorance, that the gods were the only truly wise beings, and that his accusers were motivated by a dislike of his plain speaking and refusal to accept the pretense to knowledge of others.

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Socrates’ main defense against his first class of accusers is to explain the source of his wisdom, which he claims is not from himself, but from the Oracle of Delphi. He argues that the gods are the only true source of wisdom and that he is merely seeking knowledge from any wise person, whether citizen or stranger. He then goes on to explain that his accusers are either jealous of his success or angered by his examination of their own lack of knowledge.

PAGE 39

The horse trainer is to horses as Socrates is to the youth. This means that the horse trainer takes care of the horses and teaches them, just as Socrates takes care of the youth and teaches them. Thus, singing that Socrates is a doer of evil and corrupter of the youth. This is a statement made by Meletus, one of Socrates’ accusers, claiming that Socrates is corrupting the youth by teaching them false beliefs about gods.

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Meletus’ contradiction is that he claims that Socrates is intentionally corrupting the youth, but then later suggests that Socrates is not aware if the people he associates with are corrupted.

The most important points were:

(1) That Meletus did not have any real charge against Socrates;

(2) That Socrates believes that the good do good to their neighbors, and the bad do evil;

(3) That Socrates does not believe in any gods other than the ones the city recognizes.

The son of Thetis Achilles, hero of Homer’s Iliad, is described as having no fear of death or danger and instead fearing disgrace more than anything else. He was willing to risk his life in order to avenge his friend Patroclus, and his mother warned him that if he did so he would die himself. This example is used to illustrate how Socrates suggests that one should not fear death or danger, but instead focus on doing the right thing and following the commands of the gods.

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Socrates sees his mission as searching into himself and other men, and fulfilling the philosopher’s mission of exhorting anyone he meets to care about the improvement of their soul.

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Socrates’ service to the State is exhorting and convincing citizens to seek wisdom, truth, and the greatest improvement of the soul.

Socrates did not become a politician because a spiritual voice warned him that he would perish if he did.

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The point of this story about the Thirty is to demonstrate Socrates’ willingness to stand up for justice and righteousness, even at the risk of his own life.

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The major points established since page 41 were: that Socrates did not have any regular disciples, that he had been the same in all his actions, public and private, that people enjoyed listening to his cross-examination of the pretenders to wisdom, and that he believed in the gods in a higher sense than his accusers.

The number of lines you drew across the page is 0.

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Socrates’ point in the “penalty” he proposes seems to be to demonstrate his commitment to justice and virtue.

Number the alternative penalties Socrates rejects:

1. Death

2. Imprisonment

3. Fines

4. Exile

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Socrates’ mood is resigned because he is facing death, but has accepted it with grace and dignity. He is aware that his death is the result of his enemies’ slander and wishes to warn them of their own fate if they do not repent. He also wishes to leave his accusers with a reminder of his teachings on the importance of examining one’s life and the pursuit of virtue.

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Socrates’ prophecy is that the greatest good is to converse about virtue and that the life which is unexamined is not worth living.

Socrates believes that death might be a good because it might be an undisturbed sleep, or a journey to another place where the true judges give judgment.

Socrates’ points about death are that it might be an unspeakable gain, or a journey to another place where one can converse with great figures from mythology.

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Socrates might be happy to die “again and again” because he believes he will be able to continue his search into true and false knowledge in the afterlife, and he will be able to converse with heroes of the past like Palamedes, Ajax, and Odysseus.

THINKING ABOUT THE APOLOGY

1. A great deal. He believes he has two groups of accusers. The first group is the general public, and the second is Meletus. He tells a story about the oracle at Delphi partly to explain his bad reputation. The main points in the story are that the oracle declared that no one was wiser than Socrates, but Socrates was convinced that this was not true. Other things I learned about Socrates’ life were that he defied convention by questioning people’s beliefs and asking difficult questions, and that he did not accept the popular gods of his time.

2. This is an important part of his refutation of Meletus. Looking back at the dialogue, I see the point he makes specifically about horses and horse trainers is that they have specific skills and knowledge that he does not possess, but that this does not make him inferior to them. The way this applies to Meletus is that Meletus is claiming to know what is best for the city, but Socrates is trying to show the members of the jury that Meletus is not an expert in the same way that a horse trainer is an expert in horses. Socrates is trying to show the members of the jury that Meletus is not an expert in the same way that a horse trainer is an expert in horses.

3. Socrates makes several interesting points. He says he either corrupts the youth intentionally or unintentionally. The reason he says he could not be corrupting them intentionally is because he believes he is trying to do them good, not harm. And if he has been corrupting them unintentionally, then he should have been taken aside and warned by the authorities, because he would have stopped doing what he was doing if he had known better. In either case bringing Socrates to court is wrong. It is wrong in the first case because he is trying to do good, not harm. And it is obviously wrong in the second case because he was unaware that he was doing something wrong.

4. Socrates believes he is like a gadfly because he is reminding the citizens of Athens to think more deeply about important moral questions and be more virtuous. Perhaps an example of this from the Euthyphro is when Socrates asks Euthyphro to define piety, and then questions each of his definitions to make sure that they are accurate and complete.

5. As you saw earlier in the tour, the pre-Socratics were all trying to answer the same question. That question was what is the fundamental element of the universe. A major change, occurring with Socrates, as illustrated by this quotation, is that he was more interested in examining the lives of individuals and how they can live better lives. The relationship between this concern and his story about the oracle at Delphi is that the oracle said that no one is wiser than Socrates, which suggests the importance of examining one’s own life and the lives of others.

6. Socrates is concerned with examining the lives of individuals and how they can live better lives. The people of Athens would rather focus on other things, like wealth and power.

7. From Meletus’ point of view, Socrates is guilty of corrupting the youth because he is teaching them ideas and theories that are contrary to what the state believes. Meletus would probably define corruption as teaching ideas and theories that are contrary to what the state believes. According to Meletus, someone who did not corrupt the youth but taught them correctly would be someone who taught the ideas and theories accepted by the state. From Socrates’ point of view, he is not a corruptor of the youth because he believes he is teaching them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. Someone who would truly corrupt the youth from his point of view would be someone who teaches them to unquestioningly accept the ideas and theories of the state without critical thinking. In Socrates’ opinion the best education youth could have would involve thinking critically and coming to their own conclusions. Choosing between Meletus and Socrates, I would say that Socrates is not guilty of corrupting the youth. An example of the truth of my view is the fact that Socrates is not teaching the youth to accept his own theories, but rather to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. In conclusion, I believe that Socrates is not guilty of corrupting the youth.

Thinking back on the tour thus far, the five most important things I’ve learned are:

a. The pre-Socratic philosophers were all trying to answer the same question, which was what is the fundamental element of the universe.

b. Socrates was more interested in examining the lives of individuals and how they can live better lives.

c. The oracle at Delphi said that no one is wiser than Socrates, which suggests the importance of examining one’s own life and the lives of others.

d. Socrates believes he is like a gadfly because he is reminding the citizens of Athens to think more deeply about important moral questions and be more virtuous.

e. Socrates is not guilty of corrupting the youth, as he is teaching them to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

APOLOGY QUIZ

1. Socrates’ service as a soldier.

2. The story about the oracle at Delphi

3. Socrates proposes his punishment

4. The refutation of the older accusers

5. The refutation of the newer accusers

6. Socrates confronts Meletus

7. The death verdict

8. The guilty verdict

9. Socrates tells about resisting the Thirty

10. At the time of his trial, Socrates was seventy years old.

11. According to Socrates, he is charged with: (direct quote) “corrupting the young and believing in gods not recognized by the state.”

12. Ironic

13. Nonironic

14. Nonironic

15. Ironic

16. Nonironic

17. Ironic

18. Evil

19. Socrates, the older accusers, the newer accusers, and Death

20. True

21. False

22. False

23. True

Vote and Debate

1. Socrates was guilty of believing in new gods.

Agree.

Evidence: Socrates states that he believes that death is not an evil, and is actually a good, which implies that he believes in a world beyond death.

2. Socrates was guilty of making the weaker argument defeat the stronger.

Disagree

Evidence: Socrates does not argue for his innocence, instead focusing on explaining why death is not an evil.

3. Socrates wanted to die and thus did not defend himself as strongly as he might have.

Agree

Evidence: Socrates’ argument that death is not an evil and that he is not angry with his accusers or condemners implies that he has accepted his fate and wants to die.

ANALYSIS OF YOUR PHILOSOPHICAL SELF-PORTRAIT

Question 1: Is it true that seeking wealth and physical comfort will corrupt the spirit?

Answer: True. Socrates believes that the body’s desire for physical pleasure is opposed by the soul’s desire for wisdom. The more diligently we seek to satisfy one, the more we have to abandon the other. Seeking wealth and physical comfort, according to both Socrates and Plato, would satisfy our body but starve our soul.

Question 2: Is it true that wisdom is knowing that you know nothing?

Answer: False. Socrates’ view that he “knows nothing” is ironic. He knows that his questioning is a service to the state, that the masses are foolish and the few are wise, that the gods exist, that a commitment to right action and the political life are mutually inconsistent, that death should not be feared, and so forth. Socrates’ lifelong claim to know nothing was a strategic ploy to draw others, as his “teacher,” into contact with their own ignorance.

Question 3: Is it true that Socrates makes the weaker argument defeat the stronger?

Answer: False. The ability to win arguments through cunning rather than a commitment to truth was a skill taught by the sophists, a group whom Socrates scored. If you would like to see Socrates defeated in an argument, read Plato’s Parmenides, a confrontation between the youthful Socrates and the elderly Parmenides. In the Parmenides, Socrates attempts to defend many of Plato’s central beliefs and is defeated by the philosopher Parmenides at every turn.